A narrative interview with Hülya, a Turkish woman living in a German city

  Hülya, who is 31 at the time of the interview, was 17 when she migrated to Germany in 1972.

  She is a worker in a metal factory. On February 6, 1986, she was interviewed in her apartment

  by two students, Heike Kahlert and Christa Noack, who took part in Professor Christa

  Hoffmann-Riem's empirical seminar on "the situation of Turkish women and girls" at the

  Institute of Sociology of the University of Hamburg. The interview lasted for two hours.

  Christa Hoffmann-Riem died in 1990. Those parts of her study on Turkish immigrant women

  which she had finished at the time of her death were published posthumously in a volume

  which contains several papers which she had written since 1980 (Christa Hoffmann-Riem,

  Elementare Phänomene der Lebenssituation. Ausschnitte aus einem Jahrzehnt soziologischen

  Arbeitens. Edited by Wolfgang Hoffmann-Riem, Marianne Pieper and Gerhard Riemann.

  Weinheim: Deutscher Studien Verlag, 1994).

Fieldnotes of the interviewers (Heike Kahlert and Christa Noack):

  "We got access to Hülya via another student. She has contacts with a female Turkish teacher.

  This teacher invited us to a meeting of foreign women who wanted to cook and eat together in

  (a center in this particular district of the city).

  We felt very comfortable at this meeting right from the beginning. The Turkish teacher who

  had been interviewed herself introduced us to Hülya. We explained to her what we planned. At

  first she reacted very distrustful, then she agreed: If it wouldn't create problems for her with

  regard to not being allowed to travel to Turkey, then she would give an interview.

  We exchanged phone numbers since Hülya had to do a lot during this time and couldn't give us

  a date.

  She called about three weeks after our meeting to arrange a date. She was very open and

  cordial and invited us to her home. She said that when German people visit a Turkish woman

  she wanted to prepare a Turkish meal in any case.

  Our meeting was very beautiful and harmonious. Her friendliness shamed us. Hülya had

  prepared a voluminous meal. We ate together in her living room and talked about general

  things.

  After the meal we explained again what we planned. Hülya agreed and found it important to

  tell us about her problems.

  At the beginning of the interview it was a little difficult for her to find a start, after that she

  narrated very openly and fluently.

  After the interview we went on talking a little. It was too bad that time was short, since we

  depended on public transportation and Hülya lives in the distant outskirts of the city.

  There was no language problem. Hülya speaks a very good German and has a very good

  vocabulary. She had learned the language via TV, an adult education course "didn't give me

  anything any more."

  Gerhard Riemann: A few remarks on the translation and editing of the interview with

  The translation of the interview which was conducted in German and was transcribed in a quite

  detailed way by the interviewers appears to be quite exact since Hülya can express herself in

  German in a very clear manner. (I know other interviews with German speaking Turkish

  women which are more ambiguous. I didn't translate one of these interviews since an analysis

  of these (German) data would have to constantly spell out "what could have been meant"; and

  to catch the vagueness of the text in an adequate English translation would be a very difficult

  task.)

  I have referred to the experience and process of translation in my introduction to this volume.

  Hülya makes some syntactical "mistakes” which are no impediment to understanding her -

  mistakes which I did not not try to reproduce in the translation most of the time in order to

  ensure the readability of the text. I also didn't correct Hülya's mixing of tenses (where she

  "should" have stayed with one tense), and I did not get rid of self-interruptions, new starts,

  hesitation markers ("eh") in order to convey the qualities of spoken language and off-the-cuff

  story telling. Such phenomena are typical in off-the-cuff story telling, regardless whether the

  narrator is a native speaker or not. Of course, the placement of the hesitation markers cannot

  be exactly like in the German text because of the syntactical differences between German and

  English, but I paid attention to them nevertheless. In some respects my translation simplified

  Heike Kahlert's German transcription: I left out the interviewers' permanent "uh"s and similar

  sounds. If an interviewer asks a question, makes a comment or joins in laughter, I italicized

  this (in a simple bracket). So a reader can distinguish between the narrator's and the

  interviewer's statements quite easily.

  Sometimes I use a simple bracket because I added a word or a few words in order to make

  sure that the meaning gets communicated; a simple literal translation wouldn't make enough

  sense in such a context. Sometimes simple brackets indicate that I am not totally sure of the

  translation. I wrote it down in a short commentary where I think that the translation is really

  problematic. This occurs very seldom. I use double brackets for indicating paralinguistic

  phenomena in the narrator's speech (mostly laughter in her case) and for adding a short

  commentary on my translation once in a while. Short pauses are indicated by "..", somewhat

  longer ones by "..." or ".....".

  I translated the whole transcription of the interview: the main narrative and the part consisting

  of questions and answers. The speaker continues by herself after the coda of her main

  narrative ("Well, that's my story ...") at line 843. Her post-coda reflections get

  interrupted because the tape has to be changed. Then one of the interviewers starts asking.

  In editing the transcription I made paragraphs for the sake of its readability. They are narrative

  segments most of the time, but not always so in a strict sense of the term. Later on, when

  Hülya is arguing with herself, I tried to do justice to the dynamics of her argumentation by

  constructing paragraphs. - All names of individuals and places have been changed, so that no

  identification of persons is possible.

  I originally translated this interview for Anselm Strauss who was interested in it. He refers to

  Hülya's story on page 67 of his book "Continual Permutations of Action" (New York: Aldine

  de Gruyter, 1993).

  I wish to thank Heike Kahlert and Christa Noack for giving me the permission to share this

  interview with social scientists who are interested to work on it and to make it accessible to a

  wider public.

Hülya's Narrative

(It would be great if you could tell us something about your life in Turkey and also about your

  life here. And it would be great if you could also tell us something about your childhood or

youth in this connection - how you came to the Federal Republic. Maybe you can remember

  certain things from your childhood. ..... ehm .....)

  Could you turn it off now? I don´t know /eh/ how/

  ((One of the interviewers turns off the tape recorder. Hülya thinks for a moment. Then she

  asks us to switch on the tape recorder again.))

  I was born in a small village. A thousand inhabitants .. I still have four siblings besides me,

  /ehm/ we are five siblings. And I am the youngest one. /Ehm/ my Grandmother also lived with

  us in the beginning, I cannot remember her well, I was eight when she died.

  And after a few years we moved into our suburb. My father had found a job with a /eh/ rich

  man there as ... /eh/ .. not secretary, but a man for everything so to speak. I also went to school

  there ...

  And .. yes (when) my eldest brother got married I was nine years old .. And then ... /ehm/ ... in

  the beginning of 1964 my sister got married, too, then we were just three at home.

  I was just eleven years old when my father became very ill. And then /eh/ our life /ehm/

  changed very much. My mother was still very young, but she was always a housewife. And my

  father had only /eh/ worked privately, here and there, and then he also didn't receive any sick-

  benefit and any pension .. During that time we also didn't have any money, my mother had to

  /eh/ accept money from other people to take care of my father. /Ehm/ well, and then we always

  went to my sister during summer time, they /eh/ have a big farm. I and my mother helped there

  at my sister's place a little, and that's when I started to work a little, to earn /eh/ some money. I

  might have been not older than twelve ... My father could not work again even though he was

  rather healthy, he couldn't do hard physical work at all. I always imagined those people in the

  village .. poor people who had become old. Dependent on their children and not much to eat

  and just few clothes and not being able at all to see a doctor and so on ...

  Then /eh/ in the beginning of the sixties or middle of the sixties I got to know people or saw

  them who came from Germany with beautiful cars and they had everything. Well, I was just

  thirteen maybe and I always thought: Oh, you will also go to Germany some time, but I did not

  want to /eh/ drive big cars or /ehm/ buy an apartment and real estate. My /eh/ dream was /eh/

  that my parents would be better off later on than most older people. And my brother could

  have /ehm/ he was quite good in school/ he could have gone on to College, but /eh/ we didn't

  have money. My dream was that my brother could go on to school and could assist my parents

  financially. /Ehm/ my /eh/ for my mother it was very difficult to be dependent on children, she

  practically didn't have her own money and not a household of her own when my father became

  ill..

  And then I was fourteen when I told my father, "I also want to go to Germany." .. He was /eh/

  ((she laughs)) against it, he always grumbled, "No, you won't go to Germany, you will stay

  here and one day you will get married and / and your husband has /eh/ to take care of you."

  But I didn´t want to, I wanted to be independent somehow, but I didn't know: how, you know,

  but I also didn't think about what would await me in Germany or so. I simply wanted to get

  away, it was .. a calamity /eh/ well practically I didn't receive a pocket money from my brother

  .. /ehm/ and nothing at all. I always .. envied my girl friends who had money or could afford (to

  buy) something for themselves. I couldn't afford anything for myself .. ( ) My mother

  continued to get worse and she always cried and that .. was very difficult and .. even though I

  was so young I caught everything what was going on, took part in it ... My brother .. could go

  to school .. well, until .. the end of grammar-school. And afterwards he couldn't continue

  because of financial reasons ...

  /Ehm/ I was still too young. That's with us also like in Germany: You reach full age when you

  are eighteen. And /eh/ since I could go to /eh/ Germany if I were eighteen I told my father /eh/

  that I would let it get arranged to get older. That's possible /hm/ ((she laughs)) you can let it

  get arranged to get older, but not younger ((she laughs)). I said, "I now /eh/ want to go to

  court, and then I wish to /ehm/ become eighteen /eh/." By way of a court decision /eh/ that's no

  fraud, you can do that. You take two witnesses along and a medical certificate and then, when

  you get married, if I had said that I would get married, even if I were thirteen years old, he

  would have /eh/ declared that I was eighteen. But ((she laughs)) my father was so proud, he

  didn't want to admit, he couldn't say, "I want to send my daughter to Germany." .. He didn't

  say so. And the doctor asked again and again, "Why do you want to have your daughter made

  older?" Well, my father didn't want to reveal it. And then the doctor said, "I can /eh/ deceive

  /eh/ the court, but I cannot deceive God", he said, "she is still almost a child, after all." It was

  very difficult for my father, but afterwards he told (him) so, you know, that he is so ill and that

  he cannot work, that he will send me to Germany. And then he said, yes, that I am still almost a

  child, that he cannot /eh/ give a medical certificate.

  And then it took two years /ehm/ .. For two years we tried it in my town and then afterwards at

  the place where my sister is living. (And how old were you at the first time, at the first

  attempt?) Fourteen. I was fourteen then. ((She and the interviewers laugh.)) And then we

  thought, it doesn't work so well in a big city, and then we chose still another town, and there I

  was for over a year .. Went to court a few times and it still didn't work. Then three, four years

  had passed and / three years. I had /eh/ applied at /eh/ the labour office that I would go to

  Germany. One cannot simply /eh/ go to Germany, I didn't come illegally, I came to Germany

  via the labour office. But I had to wait: He said that even if I get called I am not allowed to go

  to Germany, since I am still too young. I may get a passport when I am eighteen... And, well, I

  waited for two years, I /ehm/ had myself made one, only one year .. older .. And .. afterwards I

  waited for another year.

  And then one day ... such a letter arrived .. And then someone said, "You will go to Germany.

  Mail arrived today, for you." I had been on the field with my sister. When we returned in the

  evening, /eh/ a young man called from the coffee house. Of course I couldn't believe it, you

  know, and /eh/ I was not glad, in that moment I didn't know what I felt. When we arrived at

  home on the tractor with my sister, my mother already cried aloud that I /eh/ she also grumbled

  that I wanted to do that and .. that I have to be content and so on, you know, and she didn't

  want to, but .. they didn't have another way out, see. I am sure /eh/ my mother wouldn't have

  sent me to Germany if she .. had had alternatives ...

  Then they gave me a fixed date .. it was .. 1972, I had to go to the labor office, I went there ...

  They checked everything first of all, whether I could write and read, and then they also /eh/

  asked if I had finished school. /Eh/ I could show everything, I also finished school. And then I

  had to read the newspaper, I also read it and ((she laughs)) ... And then I started with /eh/ my

  passport. It's not so easy to get it. That always takes some time, you know. You have to .. go

  everywhere.

  When the passport was finished, we still got another date at the/eh/ that was in the end of

  1972, end of 1972 .. I had to /eh/ go to Istanbul then. And then ... of course farewell from

  home was very hard ... then .. well, but I still didn't know how hard and since my brother went

  with me to Istanbul... And there .. in Istanbul there is /eh/ a huge building, if it was the labor

  office I don't know or the health department. I hadn't been to /eh/ such a big city before, you

  know.. And then we /eh/ went there. It took three, four days for the examination, the whole

  examination ... In Istanbul we were just a number, not a personality any more. No name, we

  were given numbers over the P.A., a huge hall, they always /eh/ called numbers. Men and

  women were separated /eh/ separated of course, but you /eh/ had to go with several people

  into a room for getting X-rayed. And somehow that was quite terrible that people always / the

  women from the countryside felt ashamed to stand there totally naked. Many people were

  together and then, well, there was also staff, male staff. And then they once grumbled when the

  women covered their breasts with their hands: "Why are you ashamed after all, are you a

  beauty or what? Let go or", somehow treated in an inhuman way, already in Istanbul, you

  know. The urine was analyzed, blood examination, when someone's blood pressure was

  somewhat too high, the person had lost already, you know. They were so sad, because they ..

  had already spent all their .. /eh/ money for Istanbul, the whole passport and the trip cost a lot

  of money already, you know ... Teeth were also looked at, you had to bow, bones were

  counted, too, spine had to be straight, and one must /eh/ not have a gap between teeth, also no

  rotten teeth, the blood sedimentation had to be all right, everything. Also if one happened to be

  somewhat small .. one must not have a scar from an operation and one has to stretch hands

  straight ahead, one has to be quite calm, no nervous illness ... Of course we were all totally

  healthy /ehm/ ehm/ the people who had passed. Many had to return home, well, maybe they

  were lucky ((she laughs)) but many /eh/ cried. Perhaps that was the only way out out or the

  only hope for them, I don't know. When /eh/ someone told me that when she was upset during

  the examination that her blood sedimentation or her blood pressure was too high - that's why

  she didn't /eh/ pass first. I /eh/ was always so afraid of injections because I had never been to a

  doctor before. And then my brother grumbled, "Did you have to be /eh/ so nervous or upset?

  What happens if you lose and the whole thing has been in vain?" I said, "What can I do? I am

  afraid of injections after all." Because it was such a big /eh/ needle, and then it was not very

  careful. And somehow everything, the whole examination was inhuman ... It took four days,

  the whole examination .. I was lucky or unlucky that I passed after all ..

  And ... after the examination .. you still get another date, you have to /eh/ be there again very

  early. And then the work gets distributed, who goes where. We were a few /eh/ well, I would

  say/ (we were) called in (by a) young girl, we went into a room. She was Turkish, she had a

  catalogue in her hands. People were all beautiful with white clothes, white scarfs and white

  clothes. She said, "You need not work, only press the button. You won't see chicken." That

  was a slaughter-house for chicken. "That's only an assembly line here, and you won't see the

  chicken, you will only press the button and the whole work gets done by itself."You know, I

  don't have much in mind with slaughtering, but I thought, if I don't have to see it and if it's as

  clean as a nurse it will be all right, you know.. But that was not everything, it doesn't /eh/

  (proceed) as you wish. There was still /eh/ another person and /eh/ he spoke a language that

  differed from ours, we had to stand up, turn around, he looked at us from the bottom to the

  top and the other way around, too, well, ((she laughs)) he had to /eh/ take a look, a close look

  /eh/ what he is paying for...

  I came to Germany on the fifth of July 1972. We were picked up ... at the central station ..

  were taken to the factory first, we got a meal there, everyone a chicken leg ((she and the

  interviewers laugh)). And the foreman said to us we should eat as much /eh/ .. (As possible?)

  Yes .. the / we didn't know a word of German. No one of us had a Pfennig in her pocket! And

  .. nobody had said anything that we could have /eh/ taken a few Marks from the bank, we

  could have changed money. But neither knowledge of the language nor money. Well, he

  explained to us that it /eh/ is a .. special day, therefore we got the chicken leg and did not have

  to pay for it. We were allowed to eat and could eat as much /eh/ ((she laughs)) as we could.

  And afterwards, (he) didn't say anything afterwards, you know, and not gratis, afterwards with

  money. So, but .. we hadn't really arrived yet after the trip and the farewell ... you know.

  We were taken, after the meal /eh/ a bus took us to the dormitory where we were supposed to

  live in / in the future. Well, I don't know why, we certainly were not stupid, but we we also

  didn't talk among ourselves. It was the first time /eh/ that we saw each other when we arrived.

  We had spent the whole time, had taken the whole trip together and didn't speak a word, not

  even with fellow country-men. We were .... /eh/ five girls and a family together, seven people

  arrived on the same day.

  Well, we were supposed to get /ehm/ money right away, a .. part-payment, so that we can buy

  anything for ourselves and so on, but ... after the evening /eh/ when he had taken us to the

  dormitory we didn't see anyone for four days ((she laughs aloud and the interviewers laugh,

  too)), whereupon /eh/ one, afterwards on the fifth day, thanks God, everyone had taken

  something /eh/ along from home: noodles or mush or something like that, you know, and .. I

  found that strange! Even other people, fellow-countrymen, didn't knock at our door and/

  whether or not we needed something and so on. Well, we were all so sad, but we also didn't

  talk .. among each other ...

  And then we had just prepared /eh/ noodles and /eh/ one (girl) had cooked mush. There were

  not enough plates, and one had /eh/ taken /eh/ the lid of the pot and one had taken the pot. We

  were just eating when there was a knock at the door and the generous gentleman returned.

  ((she and the interviewers laugh)) As it turned out afterwards he was the first foreman, he gave

  fifty Marks to everyone of us. We should ... buy something for ourselves and so on ... Well,

  that was the start of our/ .. So we started after five days. ( ) I think we arrived /eh/ on a

  Wednesday or something like that.

  And in the beginning we only worked for four days in a week, four days, but of course maybe

  eighty hours, you know, within four days ... We didn't count it, we didn't know that one works

  forty hours per week in Germany. /Eh/ we worked so long from six till nine, till ten, in the

  evening until eight. We were dependent, too, /eh/ we were always picked up /eh/ by the bus of

  the firm. And we also could never /eh/ go back, even if we had quitting time /hm/ at eight

  o'clock. And we even had to sit outside until nine o'clock and wait for the bus. Yes, we weren't

  paid for overtime hours either, nothing.

  And ... I think /eh/ I had been there for only one or two weeks .... that I had to /eh/ clean the

  firm, the whole firm after work, when people had gone home. Together with /eh/ three other

  women .. or were we three alltogether? I am not sure. Three women, we had to scrub and

  clean the whole firm, with a tube, with cold, ice-cold water. We wore rubber boots, a rubber

  apron, and this beautiful /eh/ snow white overall was always bloody. The whole dirt of the

  chicken, too, and then I had to take garbage /eh/ bags outside. Then I always told myself ..

  imagine someone from your village or of your acquaintances would see you here! You'd rather

  hang yourself! You see that/ We were too proud somehow to do .. something like that at

  home, you know. Well, here /eh/ actually no pride was left afterwards. In the beginning they

  /eh/ took /eh/ the passport away from us because of .. the permit of residence or something like

  that. I don't know - because of the permit of residence ... /Eh/ then someone became ill .. after

  a few days. She had /eh/ gotten /eh/ water in her ears or something like that. I had to step in for

  her .. for cleaning. I went along, but because I thought that I only had to do it /eh/ for a few

  days. And then when she returned they said that I am better and that I had to stay. I said, "No!"

  /eh/ - you see, big huge iron cars filled with soap water, I had to wash whole /eh/ box with a

  brush and so on. I said, "No." He said, "Yes." And, yes, except "yes" and "no" I didn't know a

  word. Or he said/ he tried it for a long time, he always said, "You have to, you have to do it,

  clean." If not, they wanted to send me back to Turkey, you know, I didn't have a passport yet.

  And they also did this with other women who had refused. Simply sent them back home. I did

  not want this under any circumstances. Well, I already wanted to give up in the beginning, to

  run away. I said, "I don't care if I have money or not. I don't want to stay here." But I /eh/ also

  didn't have money. When I came to Germany we had to take money from other people. First, I

  had debts, that was an affair of honor, I had to pay this back. And, second, I always thought,

  no one will believe me when I tell them what /ehm/ has happened in Germany. And they will

  think that I might have stolen something. Or .. and therefore the police has sent me home and

  so on. I say, "No." and: I was also too proud to return again. To stay here was also /eh/ hell

  somehow. But I worked in the firm for the whole year and .. I did cleaning work for the whole

  time. Additionally. I always had /eh/ quitting time at ten or eleven o'clock and on the next day I

  started together with other people at six o'clock. (That means, you did the normal work first

  and did the cleaning afterwards?) Yes. (Every day?) Every day. And I didn't get any extra

  pay. (And for how long did you do that?) For one year. Since I had /eh/ I had a contract. There

  was also a translator, she was a fellow country woman .. of mine, but .. I prefered the head

  foreman. She was even worse than the employer. I had this /eh/ even though I didn't

  understand so much, but she never translated correctly when we complained and so on.

  Normally I was supposed to get ten Marks additionally for every evening. Yes, but I got /eh/

  the whole /eh/ monthly salary of only four hundred Marks, that means my salary was actually

  /eh/ hundred and fifty Marks if I got this for cleaning... /Eh/ when there was a month in which

  we got five hundred or four hundred and fifty Marks, we were happy.. That was like a gift, you

  know. Of course we didn't think of how many hours we worked. Every day thirty three, thirty

  five, forty thousand chicken were slaughtered. Everything had to be packaged, including the

  bones, the hours didn't count, the work had to be finished. And the next day it starts anew, you

  know. Everything had to be /eh/ cleaned, everything had to be /eh/ packaged ...

  So .. there .. was /eh/ and there were also /eh/ assembly no /eh/ assembly line, but there was

  such an iron (thing) at the line and ... I think I had just been there for two or three weeks /eh/ ..

  Actually I always had bad luck ((she starts laughing and the interviewers laugh, too)) in my life.

  Someone had /eh/ put a knife on the assembly line /ehm/ on the edge. And it just slipped over,

  it fell down in front of me and fell on my foot. That was a very narrow knife. The cut was quite

  small of course, but the pain was immense, because it went thru to the bone. And .. well, they -

  we also didn't get any first aid and so on, nothing, you know. Waiting for so long until the

  janitor came. We always said "janitor", but there was someone who took us to the doctor and

  took care of everything. And he came, took (me) somewhere, but I don't know if it was a

  hospital or at a doctor. And they laughed at me, because the cut was so small, you know. I

  couldn't tell them anything, I don't know what he told. And - yes, and three days / I also didn't

  have slips or something like that that there had been an accident, or being put on the sick-list

  and something like that - we didn't know about this, see. /Eh/ practically I just lived /eh/ at

  home, I didn't have anything to do with /eh/ the world of work or with the outside when I was

  home. And, yes, I was at home for three days. I don't know who had told me that I can stay

  home for three days. And on the fourth day /eh/ that's how I limped /eh/ that's how I went to

  work. I couldn't really walk, I still had a very swollen foot .. Somehow this .. guy had pity on

  me and sent me back home again, the janitor drove me back home again. And I went sick for

  seven days ... I didn't know / I was just sick, I didn't know, that you /eh/ report /eh/ sick or

  (use) a medical certificate. We never saw a medical certificate. And .. / even when we had

  strong spasms in the stomach or let's say a colic of the kidney and so on .. we had to go to

  work first and had to put in a request that we /eh/ we had to write it in the morning,

  immediately in the cafeteria, the woman in the cafeteria took care of that. And ... afterwards ..

  if he has time, the janitor, they said, "Come on - hurry up, hurry up, undress - to the doctor!"

  And there was someone, you know, a very /eh/ a very old man, was supposed to be the doctor

  of our firm or who knows what. We went there, we didn't know German .. And, I don't know,

  what he asked. (He) gave .. something to us, back to work. It was with pain ....

  There was also a /eh/ a fellow country-woman of mine .. /eh/ she was also pregnant, a very

  small woman, I wanted to help her with the cart, we had to push it to /eh/ the cooling chamber.

  And there was another cart behind me, I didn't know that she would push it from /eh/ behind.

  She pushed the cart so hard /eh/ and my hand had come between it. I showed (it) to the chief

  operator that I cannot work, and then he said, "doesn't matter", you know, and "not tragic" ((in

  German: "nix schlimm" which is part of a simplified German which native speakers often use

  when communicating with migrant workers and members of ethnic minorities; it is much below

  the present linguistic competence of the narrator)). But shortly before quitting time my hand

  had become quite swollen and red and blue. I showed it /eh/ to him that I cannot /eh/ work, but

  I had worked like that for the whole day, you know. And then, in the evening, they drove me

  to the doctor. I got such a splint, and I also got a bandage. It was broken somehow or

  something like that. And I said that I had shown it to him. He said, "No", that I hadn't shown

  it, that he didn't see it. I said that he had said to me, "Doesn't matter. Not tragic." ((in German:

  "nix schlimm")), you know, but he said afterwards that he had not said it, that he also had not

  seen it ....

  I don't know /eh/ if it was (during this thing) with my hand, at one time I was also sick at home

  /eh/ and .. In every year /eh/ this firm used too much personnel, no one stayed there after a

  contract of one year. And in Turkey they worried why people didn't stay.. Then they sent

  someone. He was supposed to control the conditions. ... And the janitor came very early and

  he said to me, "Doctor!" You know, I thought then he wants to take me to the doctor. /Eh/ I

  liked this /eh/ being taken to the doctor right away. I thought ((she laughs)) I had no

  complaints, you know, no big pain that I have to go to the emergency doctor /eh/ somehow or

  something like that. And then I had to sit in the cafeteria, sitting there for the whole day. I

  waited. I thought he'd take me to the doctor. Till the /eh/ evening when other people had

  quitting time. They had always come down again and again, when they had a pause, for

  breakfast, for lunch and in the afternoon. And then they always asked me what I was doing

  there. I said, "I am waiting for the janitor, he will /eh/ probably take me to the doctor."

  Afterwards I heard that the man had arrived from Turkey, and therefore /eh/ they didn't want

  /eh/ to present me that I might tell him something. Therefore he had picked me up at home ..,

  but ... /eh/ the ... man .. had .. /eh/ enjoyed his chicken and had drunk some whisky or brandy,

  you know, ((she and the interviewers laugh)) and returned to Turkey with a good report. And

  that had not been necessary that I had to sit there for the whole day, you know. I am sure he

  didn't take a look at the dormitories and so on, you know. (He was) not interested in that, they

  took ... good care of him, sent him back home again.. I thus didn't see .. officials from Turkey,

  too....

  So /eh/ three weeks before the end of my contract /eh/ /here in Hamburg I had .. not so close,

  but I had relatives of my mother's side. My parents didn't want me to live in Germany totally on

  my own. And when they were /eh/ home on vacation my mother had .. asked them to get me ..

  here. To Hamburg. They lived in Bergedorf ((a district of Hamburg)). They visited me, they

  said /eh/, "We'll just take you along. We will talk to your employer." But he didn't waive of one

  day. He didn't .. send his people away, rather to Turkey, but not to a different firm ( ).

  And after /eh/ ... (then) the contract had ended .. You know, (when the) contract (was) made

  /eh/ since we had started five days later we had to finish up for the five days that we had stayed

  at home. The contract ended, see, we didn't carry this through ourselves, the firm did

  everything. Right away I was, you know/ I also didn't have pleasant experienc(es) with the

  union. No one told us that now we had /eh/ to get a permit to work/ a permit of residence for

  ourselves. The brother of a friend in the dormitory /eh/ came to/eh/ pick her up there. And then

  he said, "Show me your passport!" Or he came from Berlin, I don't know. And then he said,

  "What?! You have no permit of residence? How am I supposed to / how am I supposed to take

  you with me?" He said, "What do you think if there is a passport inspection on our way

  afterwards? That could happen", he said, "that the police /eh/ stops us and says, `Passport'!

  And then they would send you home!" .. We looked like (that)/ you see, we didn't know what a

  permit of residence is. He said, "Don't you all have a permit of residence?" We said, "What's

  that supposed to be?" He said, "What do you think how you will /eh/ stay here without a

  permit of residence? (They would) not (wait) a second", he said, "and they'd send you home!"

  He asked us for the first /eh/ next aliens department. We also didn't know that. And .. well, he

  said that he would find that, that was twenty minutes to twelve. He put all of us in his car .. We

  were /eh/ four, four or five, yes, five girls, actually it was overload. He speeded with his car, it

  was ten minutes to twelve when ((she laughs)) got to the next town. That was close by /eh/ not

  in our town, but another town close by. Small, was a small place ... And the offical stared with

  his eyes open ((she and the interviewers laugh)) when he saw all of us, six, seven persons, I

  don't know, even after one year we didn't know German because we had always been among

  ourselves and didn't have have any contact with German colleagues whatsoever. They also

  didn't treat us as humans. We just worked side by side, but not with each other... And then /eh/

  the man /eh/ asked why we hadn't come earlier since (the permit of residence) had already been

  invalid for five days. And my /eh/ friend's brother explained/ we said that we had worked until

  .. /eh/ the previous day. He didn't want to believe it why the firm hadn't registered us. Of

  course he didn't believe us. And he called in the firm if we had really /eh/ worked until the end.

  Then they were so kind to admit it, but he was angry, the official. Why and for what? That one

  cannot do this as a human. And why (they) had not given a permit to work and so on. Well,

  everyone of us got a permit of residence for three months, we were glad ((she laughs)) and

  happy that /eh/ someone had done this for us.

  Then we went back. And this was the second great farewell: For one year we had lived in one

  narrow room, five girls like sisters /eh/ like siblings. You know, even when we quarreled and

  so on we were never mad at each other. We stuck together in our difficult situation, you know.

  And .. /eh/ we also didn't have a kitchen, this was a small, two small rooms (in which) we /eh/

  five, yes, five girls lived, we also cooked there. We had a shower /eh/ downstairs for the whole

  house. It looked /eh/ like the gas /eh/ chambers in concentration camps, this shower. From

  above. /Eh/ All three/ four /eh/ of us went in there right away, because the water always turned

  cold so fast. We couldn't take turns when taking a shower. We put shampoo on all the hair and

  stood under the water. Took the shower very fast before the /eh/ water turned cold. This used

  to be /eh/ not a dwelling house, that was an old school which the firm had /eh/ rented for

  foreign workers. But actually there were no apartments, also no kitchen. We also couldn't

  (buy) groceries because the shops were always closed. When we came from work it was dark

  already, all closed. And therefore /eh/ we /I don`t know who did it/ subscribed to a bakery,

  someone came by with a car and delivered bread twice a week because we didn't have anything

  to eat at home .... To be sure I couldn't eat the bread ((she laughs)) because this man came

  twice a week. And eating the same bread for the whole week - that was too hard, too, and I

  always threw away half of it. But in /eh/ a small place, that was almost a village, it was possible

  sometimes if need be to knock at the backdoor and then she opened (the door) and then we

  bought something ... But somehow I did not /eh/ even though the work was so .. dirty and ..

  hard and .. not worthy of a human being /eh/ it was not so painful because we always stuck

  together. When the first friend /eh/ was picked up all four of us weeped like small children.

  They were all picked up by turns, and then one (of us) stayed back.. And then my relatives

  picked me up and I went to .. Bergedorf, to Bergedorf for the first time .. He was always sad

  that /eh/ a friend had stayed there all by herself. He said, "She has no family and nobody. What

  will she do there?" But she didn't want to come, maybe she didn't trust people whom she didn't

  know.

  I was with my relatives for ten days, they tried to find /eh/ work for me in a hospital. They

  didn't want (to hire me).

  /Eh/ .. We asked a few people, and afterwards I /eh/ got a job in a metal processing firm ((she

  gives the name)) in Reinbek ((a small town close to Hamburg)). I also lived in a dormitory

  there. In the beginning we were three, four persons in one room. That has the same length as

  the firm: fourteen rooms side by side and a kitchen in the end of the /eh/ corridor. Actually the

  kitchen is at the entrance, but when you go upstairs you have to go back the whole way. Also a

  shower and so on, just the same, only one big room. We took showers there and we only had

  two /eh/ hot plates for all the .. people there who lived down there ....

  My work there was also not easy. For two years without interruptions I rubberized, punched

  lids /eh/ of sausage cans. I always had to operate two, three machines .... For afterwards I

  couldn't do it. My arm swelled all the time, I also had such a low blood pressure, (I) fell over at

  my work. And then I had inflammations of tendon or nervous pain in my left arm. I was not

  allowed to work, always got half plaster. I was still new, but ... When I was there in /eh/ the

  first time they dropped a lot of people. And .. even though I was new they didn't drop me ....

  I worked /eh/ .... there, and then afterwards I had to change my division because I (couldn't)

  the hard work ((not quite understandable because the first side of the tape ends here))

  ( ) Actually I was supposed to do quite easy work because of my arm, but ... I always had to

  / that was always called /eh/ "transport" /eh/ I always had to lift cardboards on the pallet. That

  was at least seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred full cardboards a day...

  /Eh/ It wasn't so nice in the dormitory either.. We lived under the .. /eh/ printing office. And

  /eh/ they also worked in three shifts, and all the machines, loud ones and so on, we heard

  everything. We also couldn't sleep so .. well. When you lived with three persons, four persons

  in one room, two shifts, when I had the early shift and the other one had /eh/ the late shift. We

  had just fallen asleep when she returned from work. Even when you worked in the same /eh/

  shift, well, it's even hard to get along with siblings, it's still something different with unknown

  people. And sometimes a big /eh/ age difference: I was just eighteen years old then and .. some

  of them were over forty or already fifty. They were either .. sitting there for a long time or

  went to bed too early. Then I was also supposed to turn off the light or to stay up (sitting) with

  them as long as they wished, you know. And .. , you know, I was quite different. They had

  already been .. /eh/ .. in Germany for some more years, they had already become somewhat ..

  different. /Eh/ .. And that was a hard blow for me and - even though the work had been so hard

  at the chicken slaughter house, if you look at it from /eh/ the human side, from home .. /eh/ ..

  this sticking together and the love of /eh/ ... colleagues and friends, that's what I simply missed.

  You know, I ... looked at all of it somehow .. actually I am .. /eh/ so ... I act more emotionally

  and and I just cannot simply pass people either. And .. that .. made me very sad because ..

  material things were always more important for people and they grumbled because of

  bagatelles all the time. I always cried. I didn't want to hurt anybody. I was .. /eh/ totally

  different /eh/ from how I am today. I am still sentimental, sensible today and I tend to act

  emotionally. I am not able to not look straight at someone sitting across from me /eh/ .. neither

  do I - I also don't like superficial people. I don't like them either. But in former days I was even

  .. even more sensible / I have (it) from home.. Human things and and love and comfort were

  important for us and only machines were important here. The humans were not important. And

  then we were just /eh/ ... people practically who did the work, we didn't count as something

  else. But that made me so sad because our people had also become like that. Those who had

  already been here for a couple of years, just money, nothing else, you know. They just wanted

  to have money.. And I cried all the time, the janitor said if I go on with my crying that I was

  gonna .. die soon. I had the weight of seventy kilograms when I came to Germany. I lost

  twenty kilograms within a few months.. That means I did ... not /eh/ go on a diet or something

  like that. Every time I read a letter I sometimes couldn't read my letter because it had /eh/

  become so wet from my tears and ... I also don't /eh/ have anybody here in Germany. My

  relatives, they are not really ... members of the family....

  Well .. afterwards we also moved, we were/ there were only Greeks and one Spaniard among

  us. The two Greeks prefered to /eh/ live with us instead of living with their fellow country /eh/

  woman. We were just women. Men were not allowed to visit ... and also no relatives and so on

  were allowed to come in. /Eh/ I liked that: Everyone could go outside when she wanted to do

  so and so on, but .. that we were among ourselves and since these were narrow rooms, and if

  someone would have come to visit, too, where should we have gone? Imagine a friend had

  been visited by .. (her) family and so on, that wouldn't have been so .. nice .. We moved .. and

  .. into .. a different building. That was .. /eh/ better than downstairs in the basement, but ..

  much narrower ... /Eh/ we .. / the Greeks were living downstairs on the first floor /eh/ and

  upstairs we lived among ourselves ((she laughs)) again, but .. I (stayed) there ... for four years

  .. I was /eh/ in Germany for four years.

  In 1976 .. (it was) during vacation /eh/ ... (that) I also got married .. I didn't want to return to

  Germany. I wanted to .. go back to Turkey. I could not imagine that I /eh/ would endure this

  here for fourteen years. And my mother also said /eh/ and she said all the time that I should

  return, every time / that means I could not go on a vacation in 1972 /eh/ 1973. (I had to wait

  till) .. March 1974 when I went on my first vacation. And they couldn't recognize me again

  because I had become so .. thin. And ... she had cried so much /eh/ all the time and .. it was

  very hard for her because I was the youngest one. I was together with my mother all the time.

  And when I came to Germany she was very sick for three months. She couldn't bear this,

  because one week / after one week my brother went to the army, you know. Two children /eh/

  who left home at the same /eh/ time, you know, that was a very hard blow for my mother ...

  And, yeah, in 1976 I got married /eh/ well, that was .. no .. marriage with great love, but I

  didn't love anybody so much either or something. I had left home too early. In Germany /eh/ I

  didn't dare .. get to know anybody. You see, I was .. /eh/ like in a prison so to speak. Work

  and and accomodation are at the same .. /eh/ place, the same place. I rarely got out from

  behind the (iron) bars. And that was only a few steps, dormitory and work place. I just went

  out for shopping and .. nothing more. Even though I was so young (if you think of) discos and

  /eh/ the movies or a pub and so on.. Yeah, at home, from home /eh/ .. I had already been

  (accustomed) somehow ... (to the fact) all the time that a woman doesn't go into a pub (when

  she is) alone. Or into a discotheque and so on. We were not used to that, that means, I did not

  miss it... Then I /eh/ told (them) that I would like to go back to Germany again, for a while ..

  /eh/ after I had gotten married. I wanted to take a few things with me from Germany /eh/. I

  said, "I have nothing, no money, didn't buy anthing either," I say. At any rate I had been in

  Germany for four, five years.. /Eh/ "When I have children later on and so that I .. can tell

  (them) at least that I had been to Germany and that I had bought this or that and so on,

  memories and some electric things and household goods and so on." .... I had /eh/ already

  talked about this before my marriage that I would like to go to Germany for one year. I

  prefered two years, but my parents in law and also my mother said that a .. newly wed young

  woman should not live apart .. /eh/ for so long.

  But when I returned to Germany in 1976 /eh/ after vacation .... I was /eh/ sick. I had a stiff

  neck, I was at home for three weeks. I had just started to work when I got something with my

  stomach. I thought it was the stomach. And then I went to the doctor. Without /eh/ having

  examined me, he gave me .. /eh/ tablets. I was supposed to take /eh/ the tablets until Tuesday.

  If it didn't become better I was supposed to get X-rayed. But .. on Sunday night .. on midnight

  .. I had to (go) to the hospital. Appendicitis... I only got drops for one and a half weeks,

  because everything was inflamed... And .. that was, yeah, in the end of 1976 ...

  And one and a half weeks after the appendectomy I had to start working again because he said

  that I am "able to work" again, but I didn't feel like it at all. After the operation I always felt

  pain on my left side. I went back again and again. I said, "It hurts so much. I cannot stand

  (erect) any more." He said .... that it derives from / eh/ the operation, from the scar somehow,

  it radiates. He didn't even take a look at it! ..

  And that /eh/ after Christmas it became /eh/ totally nasty: I could hardly stand (erect) any more

  ... In the beginning of 1977 /eh/ it was the first or second day of work / I /eh/ couldn't do

  anything any more. And I was quite pale, and they all said what's the matter and so on. Then I

  /eh/ told the foreman that I'd go home. A colleague gave me a different .. /eh/ address, another

  name - of her family doctor. I went there. And then she got mad (and asked) where I had been

  for so long, where, where do I live. And I told her that the doctor hadn't taken a look at it and

  had just said ( ) it derives from the appendectomy, that I should go on working. She said,

  "Don't lose time, not a second, you must not lose one second!", she said. She couldn't ..

  determine what it was, but she says, "It can become lethal," she says. That was as /ehm/ thick

  as a fist.

  Well, I /eh/ .. grabbed my bag, also bought some things for myself on my way since I had had

  my first experience with a hospital when I had my appendectomy ((she and the interviewers are

  amused)). I didn't have anything, no morning gown and no .. shoes and so on, didn't have

  anything with me at all /eh/ .. Well I had .. /eh/ some clothes, but it wasn't like what you need

  in a hospital. And I bought a bag full of towels and a night gown and everything /eh/ and went

  to Bergedorf, the hospital of Bergedorf. They didn't examine me carefully, just superficially,

  and then she said .. that it might /eh/ be a /eh/ .. cyst at the ovary. And whether I like to have

  children. She said, "You can make a hundred children with one ovary." And in that moment my

  life was more important for me, I /eh/ gave my signature. ( ) She said, "It might be ..that

  /eh/ one ovary has to be removed." And she said that I should give (her) notice if it was very

  painful. They still wanted to operate on me in the night. But I said, "I can still bear it."

  On the next morning they took me to the surgery room. In Bergedorf /eh/ the surgery room is

  quite downstairs. They take you into the .. basement. ((literally: "below the .. ground")) When I

  woke up I was on a different ward, /eh/ not on the gynecological ward where I had undergone

  the operation, but on the surgical ward because it wasn't /eh/ a woman's illness.. I kept asking

  /eh/ for four weeks what they had done ((literally: "what had been done there"). Every German

  can expect that a doctor comes to her, even if it's a bagatelle. The doctor who operated (on

  you) or his assistant explains in a very detailed way, but no one came by to see me. I kept

  asking what had been done there. And on the surgical ward they said, "We didn't operate on

  you." And on the gynecological ward they said /eh/, " We don't know." ... I was in /eh/ the

  hospital for five weeks. My blood sedimentation was too high all the time, therefore they didn't

  want to discharge me since something wasn't all right, even after the operation. Well, I think

  there had been /eh/ something wrong with the /eh/ appendectomy. They hadn't, somehow they

  hadn't got it clean. And in the end I (saw) a report /eh/ he showed a report to me. There it said,

  "inflammable tumor of the bowles." They had crossed this out with red ink, he said, "No

  tumor!" Chronic inflammation of the duct! Inflammation of the colon!" That's an inflammable

  swelling or /eh/ what you call it. He said, "Not malignant!" But at first they had really written it

  on the typewriter and then had crossed .. "tumor" out with the hand. That was /eh/ the whole

  report which my family doctor had received: this small note which she had gotten from the

  hospital. It's still puzzling today what had really been done..

  Well ... in /eh/ February of 1977 I was discharged. I still couldn't stand, I still couldn't go

  shopping, I still couldn't really provide /eh/ for myself. I had to do everything on my own. Even

  though I was together with my fellow country men, no one said, "But you are ill, don't do

  that!" We all had to take turns /eh/ to clean the dormitory. I was so ill when I cleaned the

  dormitory. I went shopping, I did everything for myself. But .. I wasn't healthy nevertheless, I

  had complaints all the time, the blood sedimentation was always too high, I kept going to the

  doctor..

  In the beginning of April or the middle of March my scar was always swollen. /Eh/ .. thick as a

  hazel nut. (First of all seven pieces came out), and then she always made an injection right at

  (the) /eh/ scar and tried everything. I couldn't work, I was still on the sick list... And .. /eh/ in

  the end /eh/ it is / in the beginning it got smaller again and in the end not any more, it had

  turned totally red. Then she sent me /eh/ to the hospital again. And the head physician

  examined me and .. I was supposed to go back to the hospital right away, but they didn't have a

  free bed. And then I was supposed to go home again. They wanted to notify me when they had

  a free bed.. But I didn't want this in any case. Somehow that was too much: two operations

  within three months, the third /eh/ one still ahead of me . I say, "Rather die, but not this any

  more!" And ... I said / when I /eh/ was home /eh/ the doorman said /eh/, "A call for you. You

  have to go to the hospital!" And then I said /eh/ that I won't go. I said, "I will go after Easter.

  Now I want to celebrate Easter!" Actually we don't have Easter, but that was just a lame

  excuse. I just didn't want to. I said, "After Easter. Then I'll call (them) again." But in the

  meantime it had already turned quite blue, my belly. I couldn't stand, and then I called (them)

  on my own. I called and the head physician said, " She won't get a date, she has to come right

  away." I packed my bag again, I always had to do everything on my own ((she laughs)),

  bought too much all the time because I am alone and no one comes by. It's true, many people,

  colleagues and acquaintances came by, but /eh/ I couldn't give my underwear and my clothes to

  anyone. It's bad if you don't have a family. You always have to .. calculate thirty, forty (pieces

  of) underwear. And then I /eh/ well, in /eh/ April, the middle of April I had to undergo an

  operation again ... But I cried so much, somehow I had .. the feeling that I won't wake up

  again. And then a nurse said that this is not serious, that it has already been operated on seven

  times, you know, and that it will pass again and so on.. Well, /eh/ in the middle of April there

  was the third operation, 1977 .. And that wasn't really explained (to me) either, but they told

  me it's the /eh/ inner suture what they had sutured. That was /eh/ foreign to my body. But

  somehow I had / maybe it was said for other people / I had heard something of "malignant",

  that it had been done in time, but then they said, "No! For heaven's sake! Don't think that! This

  wasn't malignant!" But the first operation after the appendectomy/ the colon operation is still

  puzzling! My family doctor /eh/ tried to get an exact report and she said that she will bring an

  action against the hospital and so on, but ...

  Yeah, in the summer of 1977 / I had been discharged /eh/ in the end of April or beginning of

  May, I had been .. in the hospital for three weeks or four weeks, I am not quite sure any more.

  Then I urgently wanted to go home. Then I was at home for a few weeks, I didn't really

  recover, but I started to work again.. /Eh/ in the summer, in July or June, I don't know /eh/ I

  went home even though I /eh/ was not allowed to take such a long trip. I always .. thought of

  my .. family, my .. husband, what he would think of me even though he had agreed with one or

  two years. They had /eh/ written all the time that I should return right away. I simply couldn't

  do it. Because of my health, because of my financial situation anyhow and: they just cannot

  imagine what it is like here. You cannot throw down everything and run away! You have to

  settle (things with) the documents, have to run around from one department to the next one,

  go to the consulate and everything .. And .. well, I wanted to go on a vacation first of all, and

  even though I had always written afterwards how I was and what had been done I had always

  embellished this a little so to speak so that my mother, my husband should (please) not be sad.

  I said,"It wasn't serious, I have undergone an operation and I feel excellent again and so on."

  Nevertheless my mother worried a lot, she would have almost gone mad, she just cried without

  interruption. I was at home, but right away / I didn't go to my husband right away, because I

  didn't know where he is living. /Eh/ he had /eh/ he had been transfered. He worked at the post

  (office)./Eh/ When we got married we got married in our village and I didn't accompany him

  ((she laughs)) to his working place, I didn't know (where it was). /Eh/ first of all, it was not

  possible for me to take the trip on my own because of my health .. I went to my mother and

  she was with my brother. I could / because I had also become very sick after the long trip I had

  to stay there at first for a little while. And then together with my mother, they took - we took a

  cab. It was a long way of three, four hours, but she said, "No way! You can't take the bus!"

  When we were there / well, they had heard though that I am there already, but /ehm/ my

  husband and his family felt insulted because I had visited my parents first. And therefore they

  didn't come even though I was sick. Yeah .. Well, we didn't quarrel and so on, but I had .. right

  away at the .. we .. / After the wedding we had just been together for /eh/ one week, too. He is

  /eh/ my relative, /eh/ the son of my uncle of my maternal side. A nice person, (he) is a good

  person, but .. Well, you just expect something different from relatives and /eh/ something

  different from your husband and .. He was .. /eh/ not like I had .. imagined ... I also had /eh/

  had the choice in that year when I /eh/ .. / He had not /eh/ worried at all. He didn't ask me

  either what had been done there ((refering to the operations)) and what it was like and nothing

  at all. It was important for him /eh/ his pride when I would return and why, that I didn't return

  right away when he had written. And he just blamed me. I couldn't even listen. I was so ill. I

  was so miserable, nevertheless I had to play the young daughter in law for the visitors and

  guests and so on. My mother cried all the time because she had to see this .. But I knew this

  /eh/ right away /eh/ that we didn't .. harmonize. That it wouldn't end well, even if I would

  return for good. Well, (it became like that) in 1977 and 1978 ... You know, with the letter and

  things like that, there was already some quarreling. Not personally, but just in written form.

  And in 1978 I didn't /eh/ I didn't want to go to him. I wanted to - I went to my parents right

  away. I stayed there for three weeks and my parents in law came all the time that we should

  reconciliate and so on. And my mother wished so badly that we should reconciliate again. Then

  I went there until .. the end of .. my .. vacation. And that was my whole - marriage. And

  afterwards I didn't go back to my husband. I said, "We are too different." I read life (in) small

  letters, he reads capital letters. /Eh/ for him everything was so superficial and different, totally

  different and .. we were as different as day and night. Of course, older people don't understand

  it. Our mothers, my mother and my mother in law, have experienced life quite differently. They

  only accept one reason for divorce, my mother or /eh/ Turkish women: only if she is /eh/

  unfaithful or very bad things happen, or if the parents in law don't want to have her. If a man is

  /eh/ unfaithful it is even an honor for him because he can still get .. enough women and so on.

  But for /eh/ if a woman does it, it's a disaster. She either gets killed or, if (he) has still gotten

  some common sense left, the man gets a divorce, but a woman .. Even when the man /eh/ is

  guilty (they) don't ask nevertheless. It's always women who are guilty when they get divorced...

  In 1980 we got divorced ... Well, I / he wasn't in Germany, I was alone all the time. It didn't

  matter to me, but I was just sad.. /ehm/ that I was (left over) as a divorced woman, you know,

  and that's not so nice. If I had derived something out of my marriage I wouldn't have been so

  sad. Had just married in vain - just to be married, to be a housewife. Only my mother and my

  parents/well, actually I was a victim. (Hadn't been constrained), but by my mother or my

  parents. Always, I always sacrificed myself for other people ...

  Well, in 1978 ... /eh/ I was given notice by my firm. It said: /eh/ reason: because I was ill for a

  longer time period. I had been ill some years ago. 1977, all of 1977 until the middle of 1977, I

  had been ill from the end of 1976 until the middle of 1977. Within half a year I had undergone

  three operations. I wasn´t at home (because of) small complaints. I could perfectly manage all

  the work even though I am unskilled. From men's work till inspection, control. And there it

  said that I was ill over a longer time period because I had worked for one year without

  interruptions after I had been issued a certificate of good health again.

  Well, I had to learn how to go the way, how to go to a labor court, how you (get) a lawyer.

  /Eh/ I said, "I have to do all of this by myself. I have to get my experiences." /Eh/ by the way

  /eh/ I also had TV then. I also had a little contact with the outside, you know. But I took the

  initiative. I always read something. I still had no contact with German people. Also (not yet) in

  1977, 1978. (That's hard.((in a low voice)))) That means, actually /eh/ I am learning /eh/

  German since .. 1979/80, not since 1972. I didn't speak German from 1972 to 1980. I only (got

  it) from hearing television, when I heard a word /eh/ then I always asked people what it means.

  And then I wrote it down and that's how it went. I didn't learn German in the right way. Just

  from hearing, from the mouth, from TV. Therefore ((she laughs)) I have a very good opinion

  about TV. Because of the German language ((she and the interviewers laugh)). Well, in any

  case I found a lawyer /eh/ and .. you see, I wasn't a member of the union because I .. /eh/ was

  not as optimistic as in the beginning. I said, "What did they ever /eh/ do for me when I was

  distressed? Nothing!" I say, "This amount of money which I am supposed to pay for /eh/ the

  union, I'd rather pay it for a poor person. He will even thank me. (Even though I don't ask for

  it) maybe he will pray for me. But in that moment I ((she laughs)) needed the union ((she and

  the interviewers laugh)) because I /eh/eh/ would have to pay for the attorney fees all by myself

  if I'd lose before the court. I was told, "If you were in the union you wouldn't have to take care

  /eh/ of the lawyer and everything and the law costs and so on." But I /eh/ also learned that if

  you have no money you can get a poor/certificate from city hall ((she means: that you can sue

  in forma pauperis)). And I also /eh/ they didn't want to give it to me at first, they gave me a

  hard time. But in the end I also succeeded.

  /Eh/ on court day, yeah, well, a Greek woman had her hearing before me. We went in there

  together. /Ehm/ She had been in the firm for eight years. She was agreeable to 3000 Marks..

  For eight years! (As compensation?) As compensation! They didn't give it to her voluntarily.

  Of course we /eh/ accused her. But .. she wanted to return to Greece. She wanted to get /eh/

  fired. She had always worked for two weeks and went on the sick list for six weeks. She

  welcomed it to get 3000 Marks for nothing. But for me it was different. I wanted to stay here,

  I wanted .. to work. But actually there was no work /eh/ for me. Normally you get /eh/ a

  thousand, over thousand Marks for every year. As a net amount /eh/ in the metal branch. But

  3000 Marks? And the lawyer didn't ask me at all, was also agreeable to it. I had to stand there

  like this and he didn't ask me. And afterwards I heard that I hadn't taken the right lawyer. (That

  means you also got 3000?) Yes, I got 3000, too, because she had been agreeable to 3000

  Marks for eight years. Since I had been there for five years. But my only gain was, if you can

  call it a gain, I was allowed /eh/ .. to go on living in the dormitory. To live there till it was sold

  or rented (as an) apartment. I /eh/ lived there for one year, and afterwards there weren't so

  many people there and then it was very nice. Of course, a room for myself for thirty Marks was

  ((she laughs)) cheap. /Eh/ therefore /eh/ I almost saved almost /eh/ 2000 Marks so to speak.

  Afterwards I moved and then I had /eh/ .. to pay 300 Marks for a very small room where there

  was just enough place for a couch and a small table. If you look at it like this, if you take the

  apartment into account, it was still convenient. /Eh/ I mean a compensation of 3000 Marks

  after /eh/ five years, that's nothing, but ....

  I wasn't out of work for such a long time. I think I was /eh/ out of work for half a year. I also

  didn't try very hard. Somehow I found it so strange. I had never thought that I'd get out of

  work. Well ... and I went on a vacation. Didn't get so much unemployment benefit either. I was

  here for a short time and went on a vacation afterwards. Since I was on vacation for six weeks,

  I also didn't get paid (for this time).

  And in 1979 I found /eh/ a job on my own. A kind of work which I had never ((she laughs))

  liked. In the gastronomy, in the kitchen. At that time I didn't want to be out of work any /eh/

  longer. I said, "If you want to, you can do everything." And later on when I find something

  better I'd get another job.

  I could stand it for five months. I always started around five (p.m.) (and worked) till one

  o'clock (a.m.), in the week-ends till two o'clock. I had to /eh/ walk for one hour in the night.

  And I always got home around two, around three o'clock in the morning. And at that time I

  still lived in the dormitory. And /eh/ there were always people there in the morning and in the

  afternoon, I couldn't really sleep my fill. I couldn't eat anything, I couldn't sleep, not at all.

  Actually I had no day and no evening. And after five months I said, "No, I can't do that." For

  that / somehow for gastronomy, if someone wants to work in gastronomy he must really enjoy

  it. He has to be born for it. Otherwise you can't do it. All the time I was so terribly mad on

  holidays and week-ends when other people celebrated and I had to work all the time.

  And my friend, a Turkish woman, worked in a firm - where I am working now - it's also

  precision mechanics, actually also metal branch, but it's precision mechanics. It's still something

  different from metal packaging. /Eh/ she had been there for a few weeks, and then I had asked

  her if they hire anyone. /Eh/ she said, "Yeah, I can just ask." ... After two, three weeks she

  asked and then they told her that I should come by. Then I came by. I changed for worse for -

  almost .. two Marks (per hour) ((she laughs)) ... In 1979 I lost two Marks (per hour)! So I

  said, "I don't care. I .. cannot (bear) it any more. On Sunday I still /eh/ worked in gastronomy,

  on Monday I started in the precision mechanics firm. It was the 28th of May 1979...

  Well .. Right now we are about 79 or maybe 80 persons. We still don't have a shop committee

  or something like that... Of course, our German colleagues get what they want. And they also

  know what they are entitled to in precision mechanics, a precision mechanic, what a precision

  mechanic earns. They know that. And then they go to the boss (who is sitting) upstairs and

  also get it. /Eh/ Even unskilled Germans, well, I wouldn't say that I am sure, but I guess that

  they earn much more than we. I am not a skilled /eh/ worker though, but .. I can .. work quite

  well and independently and one doesn't have to control permanently /eh/ what I do. I take over

  the whole responsibility. I can (screw on, adjust, shift, but I cannot change the static

  frequency). ((translation problematic because of the technical terms)) That's the only thing, and

  I just don't have a journeyman's certificate in my pocket. And therefore I have to lose almost

  half of the wage of my German colleagues. And that makes me quite sick right now. I feel

  exploited ... Like many /eh/ other colleagues, Turkish colleagues. I get special work all the

  time, quite precise work, I / he always says: He cannot take on the responsibility, he cannot

  give it to other people. I / I tell (him) then, "I cannot get a full stomach from your praise! I

  want to have something for that!", you know, but no way. If you have complaints, where can

  you turn? To the employer! And the employer creates /eh/eh/ the law in the firm as he wishes.

  But normally we don't have a written law. He does it as he wishes. Well, I always say, "If it's

  that way, if he doesn't do it all according to law, I should also get the right pay for my work!"

  I /eh/ also have (problems) with my kidneys, with the bladder, I have a bursitis, (problems)

  with my stomach, additionally I also have problems with my /eh/ spine now. It gets stiff again

  and again .. I was /eh/ at home for three weeks shortly before my vacation, after vacation I

  couldn't move again. Then I was at home for five weeks. You cannot do anything. You can't

  help it by way of an operation. /Ehm/ I am resigned .. to it. I have belly-ache, go to the

  gynecologist. There is nothing. Everything, everything is all right. Nothing is wrong

  organically. And next /eh/ I am /eh/ I have to go to (the hospital of) Eppendorf, because all

  doctors believe that I am mentally ill. I / but I don't believe them that I am mentally ill, I don't

  know ....

  Well, that's my story. That's the whole life. Actually that's not everything, but you cannot ((she

  laughs))/ (You cannot tell everything anyhow.) You cannot tell it.

  Well, I have, I would ... I cannot express it what it is like, what it was like, how terrible it

  /ehm/ is: to be frowned upon by people in the streets all the time. When /eh/ two /eh/ people

  who have black hair talk to each other in the street, they feel oppressed that they can't go past

  them, so they complain. But when ten Germans stand in the street and talk to each other, they

  still find a way how to pass them, you know.

  When I came to Germany I was just seventeen. Now I am thirty-one .. Under German

  conditions / for Germans it is still, I am still pretty young, you know. So I am still in the /eh/

  beginning of my life, but I feel like ... ninety or empty, nothing, no ideals and no aim.

  Sometimes /eh/ I don't see any meaning in living like that.

  But thanks to God there are not just bad people. I also have / I haven't had very /eh/ bad and

  terrible experiences myself. I have a very nice German circle of acquaintances and friends, I

  would say, well, I would say so. If I don't feel well, that they even call twice a day and ask how

  I am. And if everything gets too heavy, that I can simply walk there and ring the bell - there are

  such Germans, too. ((in a low voice)) People are not all bad .. But if one generalizes, if one

  says more generally, "All Turks bad," that's what makes me angry. But if on talks about

  individual bad Germans or individual bad Turks, that's only for people who are bad. I don't get

  angry at that at all, but more generally you can't talk badly about the whole people. It cannot be

  that .. 60 to 70 000 Germans are bad, 60 to 70 000 Turks cannot be bad either. There are good

  and bad people everywhere. (I really looked at it personally from the beginning, as I did not

  have a bad experience with the employer.) ((translation problematic))

  I also live here. I have a very /eh/ small apartment though, but .. I live here quite well, I am

  satisfied, I get accepted and I am loved by my neighbors. And that makes me happy. And they

  are not / ((end of the cassette; a small pause))

  (When we met recently you said /ehm/ ( ) or indicated that your relationship with your

  family had changed a little since you have been here in Germany. Or didn't I understand you

  correctly? ... I don't know if / )

  No, I wouldn't say so. Not at all. (Or did it stay like that?) /Eh/ ((she laughs)) Stayed like that

  or changed , that .. I when I am at home, I am just a guest there. And I have /eh/ my sister and

  a brother live /eh/ far away from home. And two brothers live in/ at home. In the village where

  I grew up. I am a few days here and a few days there, well, I cannot really /eh/ get on their

  nerves. ((She and the interviewers laugh.)) And, of course, I don't know if I return for good

  and everyday life starts, how they would treat me then. And I am always a welcome sister and

  aunt who .. comes with a lot of presents and has money, too, can take care of herself

  financially. Of course, I don't know if I had to live with my brother and would be dependent on

  him.

  Well, maybe I could have imagined that ... fifteen years ago. But this was difficult. Even

  though I was at home, not .. away from home for many years. That was already a reason for

  me to go to Germany /eh/ .. because I was dependent on my brother. Just because of a few /eh/

  Lira. Well, I would have done it - earlier, fifteen years ago, but today where I've taken care of

  myself for so long and have been my own boss, well ((she laughs)) I'd rather take my life /eh/

  instead of living dependently /eh/, that means: I cannot do it any more. No, not just to have a

  full stomach, to live with someone or with my brother. That's not possible any more.

  I don't have a home either even though I say, "at our home." My father doesn't live ... /eh/ at

  home any more. He is living with / close by my sister. Also not with my sister. All by himself..

  Where my parents .. / one brother lives in my parental home and next door /eh/ we still have

  another .. house. My brother built it himself. And that's where my eldest brother is living, too..

  In fact I am just a guest there, you know. I don't know if I'd return for good, if it /eh/ will be

  like it was. I don't believe so that it will be like that, like .. fifteen years ago. Of course, I still

  have this beautiful picture of my childhood in my mind, you know, and I dream of former days.

  I am living of my past, but when / I once went on an eight weeks vacation in /eh/ .. 1981 or

  1982, that was too much. That was not a vacation any more. (A real) vacation is just for four

  weeks.

  Well, I .. think that returning for good will also be very difficult for me. I cannot live there like

  here. So securely and independently. Single women, that is .. he says, my brother says: yeah, I

  have to forget how I am living in Germany. You can't do it with us (in Turkey). You either

  have to get married to the first man around who crosses your path .. or .. live with .. your

  brother or someone or with your father (as) a guard so to speak. He says, "When you are born

  as a woman in Turkey, you will get a lifelong sentence, and as a single, divorced woman you

  will /eh/ get the death penalty, and they don't let you live," he says. He is right. You can't live

  all by yourself in Turkey.

  Well, if I had the chance to live like here ... with regard to social security, financial security,

  working place - not much, a room, /eh/ affording a room and a pleasant life, well, if I knew that

  I would get it over there I would give it up here right away. But I don't have anything. From

  what I earn I cannot live a life here which is worthy of a human being and set up for myself

  over there at the same time. But a new beginning isn't possible over there either. You see, we

  also have a certain /eh/ age limit /eh/. When you have passed it, you won't get work any more.

  How should I start there now? I don't see a way out.

  And here I'm not at home, you .. notice it again and again. You feel it that we don't belong

  here. And I'm neither at home in Turkey. That's easy to say: fourteen years. I am not a hundred

  percent ... / not Turk, I wouldn't say so, you know, but .. (with regard to how) I was before.

  You still become someone else. I fully, I've had contact with the outer world, I've had contact

  with people, I know more about the world. I am not this .. good .. little mother of the family or

  the little daughter of the family who has been influenced from infancy: "When you are big, you

  will get married and will have children and will take care of your husband and your children."

  That's gone, that's not everything. That's what I know now. That won't be like (it was) before.

  I know that a woman can /eh/ do more things than just cook and stand behind the kitchen

  stove.

  And when I think like I'm thinking today, I cannot live with /eh/ at least not with a Turkish man

  or .. or a typical Turkish man. Well, I / looking at it from this perspective I don't .. think or

  have ideas about it either that some time I will / you should never .. say no, but .. founding a

  family and getting married and getting children isn't possible at this moment, I don't think about

  it. Since I know that I am different anyhow .. If I'd get married to anyone in Turkey I will break

  .. even more than here.

  I say when I have to work there and far away from home, I'd rather work here. Somehow it has

  also become my home, a second home. I always notice it/eh/ when I return from vacation. It's

  painful for me, it's very hard to bid farewell to my family, not to Turkey. Turkey is totally

  strange to me. I don't know at all what's happening in Turkey. I'm more interested what's

  happening here in Germany, politically and .. humanly and .. economically. I can tell you all

  about it, but I don't know what's happening in Turkey. I am /eh/ just as ignorant as many and ..

  / let's say, somehow, for example as Germans who don't know (anything) about Turkey. It's

  not different with me. I only long for /eh/ my family, but not for Turkey. When I am here after

  vacation, I am looking forward to my home. That's my home, I don't have a home there any

  more. I am there just for a /eh/ visist, just as /eh/ many Germans go on a vacation somewhere,

  enjoy /eh/ themselves, but look forward to being home again nevertheless. It's the same with

  me. That's very hard, well, I'd rather return not at all. Just because of my family, not because

  it's more beautiful in Turkey than here ...

  If I had happened to have my family here in Germany, it might have looked different for me.

  But we .. /eh/ still .. stick together. And that is /eh/, you know, we are different in terms of

  family relationship and .. neighborhood, humaneness, society, and sociability and what else is

  lacking here. You know, that you .. can't make friends so easily, it's very hard here in Germany.

  But ... home is home. That means I cannot imagine to live here in Germany for ever.

(But do you think that there would be the chance ... /ehm/ hm, when you want to maintain this

  independence that you could do something like that in a big Turkish city, that it would be

  easier there? .. Hasn't there been some change, so that it might be possible for a woman?) ..

  Independence?

  (I mean independent of father or brother, that you don't .. live with them together, but maybe

  alone ( ).)

  Well, you can achieve your independence /eh/ only on the basis of social security, financial

  security, if you can afford an apartment, if you have work. There are also many young people

  in Germany who don't have work. They would also like to have their own apartment, a room.

  Many are still /eh/ twenty-four, twenty-five. Even though it's not as nice at home any more as

  (it had been when they were) sixteen, they still live there. Why? Because they are dependent

  financially? It's the same in Turkey. There is a head in the family. When someone has money,

  (when) a family member works for a few days somewhere, then they buy something to eat and

  then they get by. No one can /eh/ afford anything. If /eh/ the economic and .. /eh/ social

  security and everything ... would be like Germany, maybe it would also become different in

  Turkey.

  (Well, I was actually thinking of the other aspect which you had also mentioned before when

  you said .. that as a single and even divorced woman, that this social aspect/ Is that possible at

  all?)

  Of course that's /eh/ worse with us than in Germany, but in Germany it's not different either.

  Women get also blamed here when they get divorced. /Ehm/ but, well, thanks God /eh/ there

  are more women or maybe men, too, who don't always approach divorced women with great

  prejudices, (who don't exclude them from society,) but in Turkey it's still worse. You don't /eh/

  get accepted .. as a decent human being. If someone is living alone, they always say / .. our

  religion is different, too, and our /eh/ whole customs are different. For example, the boys do

  what they want, but girls have to stay virgins until the wedding/ wedding night. And if it stays

  like this, then (nothing) will change. You know, and if a girl is not a virgin any more, she won't

  get a husband, well, that's not really the case, (but) she cannot /eh/ choose him. She has to get

  married to anyone who wants to have her. And that's /eh/ still something different, but .. that

  also makes a big difference in the political, social, economic condition in Turkey.

  See, the women have no chances either. I always think /eh/ these chances and social chances

  which German women have / if /eh/ Turkish women /eh/ would get them, then straight seventy

  percent would get divorced, but they don't have another way out. No other choice. Where

  should they turn? All back to their parental home? With children? That's even worse (than

  staying) with their husbands. Therefore they say, "I got married, I have children now, now I'll

  stay here." They don't know the difference. They don't have an alternative, you see. Where

  should they go? To the street? She doesn't get work. What should their children do? At least

  she has a husband who can .. bring some bread, so that she has enough to eat. That's how they

  think. That's all their plight. That's not / many don't stay voluntarily. Many get beaten, and the

  husband drinks and gambles. But they endure all of this, because they don't have another way

  out. But I think many, over seventy percent would get divorced if they had an alternative.

  When living so freely and being able to afford an apartment they would quite naturally become

  /eh/ independent, too .. They don't know the difference because they don't have an alternative.

  It's also a matter of education. You always hear at home that it's not so bad and that it will

  smooth down and that you should not give up right away. But everything /eh/ has to be /eh/ /

  A woman is always generous ((literally: "a woman always gives of herself")). With her

  personality, with her notions. A woman has studied for years .. What happens /eh/? In the end

  she has to give up her occupation because /eh/ she has gotten a child. Or because her husband

  wants it like that. Why doesn't a man /eh/ give up his hobby? Even though he earns over two

  thousand Marks, he gives thousand Marks for the household in Germany, for four persons, and

  he spends the rest for his hobby, for the (electric) railway, or what do I know ... or for sailing.

  That, well, even though we have worse conditions, but if you get along well in the family, if

  you like each other, a couple, a partner, then there is a real partnership. No "that's mine and

  that's yours, you get thousand Marks for the household." No, you always sum it up. If

  something is left over, then you are able to afford something, but not prior to that. She is

  expected to turn around every penny three times before she spends it, while he should spend

  half of his income /eh/ for his hobby? In Germany it's not better either. The women who don't

  work, who don't have a job aren't independent either. They cannot do as they like. You know, I

  see it's not different in Germany, too. Here in Germany the women also get beaten, also get

  abused, they have to do /eh/ without their occupation, (without) their personal sides, too. What

  does a man give of himself? Nothing! Not even two percent. But always the woman. Not even

  fifty-fifty. Would be beautiful, no, too beautiful to be true. Not even fifty - fifty, not even in

  Europe. Well, you can't expect much from us, from a developing country. When it's like that in

  Europe, in such a progressive country, (what do you expect) from Turkey .... but ....

  (That means that you just don't dare imagine how and where your life will go on in the end?)

  No, I cannot imagine. I .. will .. just .. go back to Turkey when I am sure that I will be

  independent financially. Even though I don't think that /eh/ money is /eh/ impor